this might not end up being particularly useful, but i've noticed that i don't often take anything useful away from hand history discussions. in my experience, when faced with a question about a hand history, different people generally take a position and point out different aspects of the situation that provide support. if discussion continues at all it usually involves a lot of reiteration and little resolution...
so, i want to suggest a framework for considering poker decisions that would invite broad thinking, collaboration and finding a consensus. here it is:
D = C1X1 + X2X2 + .... + CnXn
where Xn represents the value of a condition (in +/-bb), and Cn the relative importance of that condition (for simplicity, let's say Cn is bound by 0 and 1). a bet is indicated when D is positive, and a check when D is negative.
as a simple example, consider the following hand:
SB ($312)
BB ($599)
CO ($40)
HERO ($207)
SB posts (SB) $1
BB posts (BB) $2
Dealt to HERO Kc 9d
fold,
HERO raises to $6
fold,
BB calls $4
FLOP ($13) 3s 4h Ah
BB checks
HERO ...
in order to determine whether to bet or check, there are a number of conditions that hero could consider, some of which are represented in the following decision function:
D = C1*(stack size) + C2*(flop texture) + C3*(hole cards) + C4*(opponent tendencies) + C5*(perceived image) + ...
if i asked for opinions on whether or not hero should bet, some players would likely respond 'yes, that's a great flop to cbet', implicitly setting C2 = 1 and all other Cn ~=0. other players might consider the value of K9o, how frequently the opponent tends to call, whether we have an aggressive image, etc. to arrive at a decision. the following table illustrates these different approaches:
| D (player type) | C1 (stack size) | C2 | C3 | C4 | C5 | ... |
| texture expert | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| soul reader | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| deep thinking lag | 0 | 0.5 | 0.1 | 0.7 | 0.2 | 0 |
| fish | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
...you get the idea.
by identifying and considering the relevant conditions individually, we get in the habit of looking for additional bits of information and (trying) to objectively determine the relevance of those bits. as opposed to playing on auto pilot and focusing in on a single factor that is typically biased/tilted by recent hands or the weather or whatever we've been thinking about recently.
SB ($289)
BB ($123)
UTG ($211)
MP ($203)
CO ($121)
HERO ($202)
SB posts (SB) $1
BB posts (BB) $2
Dealt to HERO 4s 2s
fold, fold,
CO calls $2
HERO raises to $7
fold,
BB calls $5
CO calls $5
FLOP ($22) As 8h 3s
BB checks
CO checks
HERO ...
both CO and BB appear fishy, but were essentially unknown at the time. hero had a clean standard tag image (if anyone was paying attention).
the decision function should look something like this:
D = C1*(stack size) + C2*(flop texture) + C3*(hole cards) + C4*(CO tendencies) + C5*(BB tendencies) + C6*(perceived image) + ...
my initial estimates are in the following table:
| condition | Cn | Xn | Cn*Xn |
| stack size | 0.5 | -10 | -5 |
| flop texture | 1 | +2 | 2 |
| hole cards | 1 | +2 | 2 |
| CO tendencies | 0.1 | -2 | -0.2 |
| BB tendencies | 0.1 | -2 | -0.2 |
| percieved image | 0.1 | +2 | 0.2 |
| total | -1.2 |
obviously, this isn't meant to be as formulaic as it might appear from that last example. but from there it would be easy for somebody to point out where their thinking differed and for both players to use that disparity to improve their thinking.
I'm not sure I really understand the formula to begin with. Xn and Cn seem sorta redundant but maybe I'm not understanding what they mean. wouldn't the importance of a condition (Cn) be implicit in the value of that condition (Xn)?
ReplyDeleteas for the 42s hand, well I'll hold off on talking about that chart until I understand more what those values mean, but I'd never check back here and stack sizes seems somewhat unimportant to me. I'm curious why you weighted it so heavily?
yeah, they probably are redundant, but the idea was mostly to separate the major inputs to the decision.
ReplyDeletefrom there i thought it might be useful to further dissect the $ value (objective) from the weight (subjective). as i try to think of specific examples, it seems that the two terms get confused in any calculation. so, maybe it would make more sense to express it as a logic formula than an equation?
the concept i was trying to capture was that i think one of the most important skills in this game is the ability to quickly understand what conditions are most relevant in a situation - before getting bogged down in the details of the condition.
in the end, the reason some conditions are more relevant is that they represent a larger $ opportunity.
would a temporal distinction between C and X make more sense?
I understand the intention here of dissecting hands with a pointed and
ReplyDeletemore defined discussion. I think the main confusing part of the
formula is trying to incorporate the idea of ev into
the different sections. I think ev is what makes the line unclear
between Cn and Xn. I think if instead both are just relative scales, Cn (a weight from 0 to 10) and Xn (a value from -10 through +10) then you can treat the two concepts more independently.
As for your 24s analysis I assume that your large negative value for stack size comes from the slightly smaller stack sizes making fold equity go down. I think with ~60bb stacks that's not much of an issue. So on my scale I would actually give X(stack size) = -1 or so to account for the slightly smallish stacks. I would also bump X(hole cards) up significantly. You have great equity now, but that's dependent on seeing two cards. You have a 4 high so checking here and allowing someone else to take initiative on the turn makes this hand much more difficult to play imo.
The rest of the values seem fine, but devaluing X(stack size) and increasing the value of X(hole cards) would make this a bet for me.
on that 42s hand, the stack sizes matter a ton to me for a few reasons:
ReplyDelete1. if i get c/r i have zero fold equity,
2. if i check and hit, i can get all or most in over two streets,
3. the random medium sized stacks are likely fishy calling stations.
idk, i understand why you'd like to bet a 4-hi hand w/ good equity, and may have made a mistake by checking. that said, v. two medium stacked players on A-hi 2-tone, i doubt a c-bet is really going to show a huge profit.